#143 FOBO - Fear of better options. Decision making with Adrienne Adhami

00:00:00: because it's the fear of a better option.

00:00:03: And this is what holds people back from making a decision at all.

00:00:06: So procrastination.

00:00:07: So they think, okay, I need to decide about this.

00:00:10: I'm not so sure.

00:00:11: I can't make up my mind.

00:00:12: So I'm going to give it another week.

00:00:13: I'm going to think about it a bit more.

00:00:15: Maybe I'm going to talk to somebody else.

00:00:16: So I'm going to give it another month and on and on and on.

00:00:18: And six months later, they haven't made any choice at all.

00:00:21: They haven't chosen to make the change or not make the change.

00:00:24: They're just still kind of in this treading water with the decision.

00:00:28: So this often is fear of a better option.

00:00:30: Welcome to HealthWise, the health and longevity podcast brought to you by Sunday Natural.

00:00:36: I'm Nils Berens and in this podcast we explore what it truly

00:00:39: means to be healthy.

00:00:41: Together we will dive into topics such as medicine, exercise, nutrition and emotional well-being, always with a wise perspective

00:00:49: on what generally benefits us.

00:00:52: We live in an age of infinite choices.

00:00:55: So what to eat, who to laugh, how to live.

00:00:59: But More option doesn't always mean more freedom.

00:01:03: So sometimes the hardest thing is the simple decision what really matters.

00:01:08: I'm recording this conversation here from this an over soul festival on the Maldives.

00:01:12: We are surrounded by ocean sunlight and people who think deeply about how to live intentionally.

00:01:18: And today we are talking about just that.

00:01:21: How to make better decisions in a noisy world.

00:01:26: is a writer, speaker and consultant known for helping people bring clarity and courage to their choices.

00:01:32: In her new book Decisions that Matter, she combines psychology, practical tools and personal stories to show how we can stop overthinking and start living it with a purpose.

00:01:42: And so I say a warm welcome, Adrienne Ellami.

00:01:45: Thank you for having me.

00:01:47: Adrienne, it's Sunday here on the Sonova Souls Festival, a day that often makes us pause.

00:01:52: So how do you personally use Sundays to reset or reflect on your decisions?

00:01:57: I really like this question because I love Sunday and in my usual routine, Sunday has nothing in the diary.

00:02:04: Every day there's something to do, somewhere to go, somewhere to be, and I try to keep Sunday free.

00:02:10: No alarm clock, no specific plan at all.

00:02:13: And often when I wake up on Sunday, the first thing I feel is the relief.

00:02:17: You know, I can choose anything I want today.

00:02:19: I can actually decide how do I feel?

00:02:21: What do I need?

00:02:21: What do I want?

00:02:23: Sometimes that might be to stay home all day.

00:02:25: Sometimes that might be to prepare for the week ahead.

00:02:28: Other times maybe you can call a friend and have a really long phone call conversation.

00:02:32: If they're also free, there's no pressure.

00:02:34: I don't look at the clock on Sunday.

00:02:36: It's amazing because I really did this for the first time since we are here that I really had no appointments this morning and I just slept as long as I want to and yeah, I skipped the breastwork to be honest but anyhow it felt really good just to not waking up as an alarm clock.

00:02:53: so I can really feel that.

00:02:56: What made you write the book about decision-making in the first place?

00:02:59: Was there a personal moment of enough is enough?

00:03:03: Yeah, so I had made I think I've made some quite bold decisions in my life and I never realized that they were bold decisions.

00:03:10: You know when somebody else hears a story or hears something about you they tell you sometimes about yourself Wow, how did you make that decision?

00:03:17: or how were you so bold?

00:03:18: for example leaving home at the age of sixteen which for me was Okay, this is the choice I wanted to make and I, you know, I moved from, I was living in West Yorkshire in England and I moved to London.

00:03:32: So I had literally one bag and actually had a rolled up poster for my wall.

00:03:36: Must have thought that that was essential.

00:03:38: What was it on the poster?

00:03:39: Oh, I'm embarrassed to tell you, it was Christine Aguilera.

00:03:41: Oh,

00:03:42: okay,

00:03:42: nice.

00:03:43: This shows how it was, you know, shows the age that I was, sixteen years old, I thought this was an essential.

00:03:48: And I moved to London, I took a coach.

00:03:51: So that's an example of one bold decision.

00:03:53: But throughout my life, I think I've trusted myself a lot.

00:03:56: I've had confidence to change things, to start things, start projects, start careers, get married, get divorced.

00:04:03: I made choices that I felt.

00:04:04: confident to do and I know for a lot of people maybe they don't have that inner confidence and know this is a good choice.

00:04:11: So during the pandemic lots of people of course were making big bold decisions.

00:04:14: they had that moment as you said to reflect.

00:04:16: they were looking around at their new situation for months thinking do I want to work for this company anymore?

00:04:22: Do I want to live with this person and be married to them?

00:04:25: Do I want to have this routine or these habits?

00:04:28: Does this life that I'm living now that I have the time to stop and look at it?

00:04:33: Did I choose this?

00:04:34: Or is it like, oh, my mum told me I was good at this, so I did it?

00:04:37: Or this person maybe pressured me to stick with this.

00:04:40: And actually, I never chose this life.

00:04:42: So lots of people, I think, were doing deep thinking during lockdown.

00:04:45: And I was delivering lots of workshops online.

00:04:48: I was on Zoom every day, and I was speaking to lots of different employees and organisations where I'd previously spoken to them about motivation and productivity and goal setting.

00:04:57: But decision making was a new thing that I had added to my presentation.

00:05:01: I like to add new things.

00:05:02: And lots and lots and lots of people asked me questions about this grid, this framework that I shared.

00:05:08: They sent me messages on LinkedIn.

00:05:10: emails to say can you share this grid with me because I'm trying to make a big decision in my life?

00:05:15: or maybe I hadn't really thought about how I make decisions until I came to your presentation.

00:05:20: and now I want to think more deeply about how I make decisions.

00:05:24: So that's when the seed was planted back in twenty twenty.

00:05:26: I didn't actually start researching and writing this book until twenty twenty two.

00:05:30: But that's really where that came from.

00:05:32: Understanding there's a universal need.

00:05:35: We all have to make decisions, whether we're a junior, senior, whether we're leading, whether we're starting.

00:05:40: Big decisions, small decisions, we're all doing it.

00:05:43: But if we don't do it consciously, if we're not aware of the choices we make, the yeses, the noes, they are also decisions, then often I think we can be influenced in many ways.

00:05:53: And when we look back, we think, oh, actually, I didn't choose any of this life.

00:05:57: Yeah, it's very interesting.

00:06:00: There's a frame where the people are going to say, how we ended up here.

00:06:03: Exactly, exactly, yeah.

00:06:05: That's

00:06:05: exactly what they're saying.

00:06:07: I also learned a lot from your book, but what I also like is you write that the word decide come from decidere, so that means to cut off.

00:06:17: What have you learned about the power of letting go?

00:06:21: Yes, well, yes exactly as you said.

00:06:23: so the Latin word it means to cut off or cut away.

00:06:26: So that means when you make a decision you choose one thing.

00:06:30: in order to accept that choice You have to remember you're discarding every other option and that could be hundreds of other choices.

00:06:36: So when you choose who to marry when you choose where to live when you choose The title of your book there's all these other titles.

00:06:42: I could have chosen all these other other people I could have met or other places I could have gone.

00:06:47: and that can be hard because often we hindsight means that we'll look back and we'll question and we kind of some people will ruminate a lot about the choices or decisions.

00:06:55: Maybe I should have had this, maybe I should have chosen that.

00:06:57: Yesterday I should have had the salad instead of the soup.

00:06:59: You know they're thinking about these things and we all make up stories of if I did this, everything will be better, everything will be perfect if I just did this or something.

00:07:08: So it's tricky to kind of accept what did you choose but also it's also a nice commitment.

00:07:17: So when you decide and you choose something just like when you choose a partner or you choose to pursue something Knowing that in order to do it you must forsake other things actually is a really really amazing commitment.

00:07:28: and when it comes to goals, which I talk about a lot as well, often people, the reason they don't achieve a big goal is because of the pursuit of lesser goals, the distractions, the easy option.

00:07:39: And so it's the same thing when you decide, okay, you can't have seventeen priorities, that doesn't make sense, priority means one, but people will tell me, I have ten priorities.

00:07:47: So if you decide which one, which goal, which priority, which thing are you going to focus on, what do you choose, then you have to accept that in order to choose that, everything else has to be Maybe not never, but it has to be not now.

00:08:01: But do you think there's a reason why we are overthinking the small decisions so well and we are delaying the big ones so much?

00:08:09: Is it really because we are so much focused on not having our priorities right?

00:08:15: I think it's because we're overwhelmed.

00:08:17: I think it's because to your question, you know, the small decisions we make every day, we make thirty five thousand.

00:08:24: Wow.

00:08:24: thirty

00:08:25: five thousand per day

00:08:26: per day conscious and unconscious we have eighty thousand unconscious thoughts per day so thirty five of them are decisions.

00:08:33: so i think the reason we are often weighed down by the small things instead of focusing on okay we can't always think deep questions.

00:08:40: you know north star what is the meaning of my life?

00:08:42: these questions are.

00:08:44: We can't answer these questions every day.

00:08:46: But the small decisions that we do make every day, such as what to do with the first few hours when we wake up, such as what to have for breakfast, such as what to wear, these kind of things, I think the reason people ruminate on them and, oh, maybe this represents more of who I am or what's this going to say about me?

00:09:03: or maybe this is just something, I didn't even think it about it.

00:09:06: I just picked it up because it was the closest thing and it was the easiest option.

00:09:09: It's because we are overwhelmed.

00:09:11: There's too much choice.

00:09:13: abundance of choice.

00:09:14: As humans living today, we have never ever had this much choice.

00:09:18: And so it is a blessing and a curse, because on the one hand you could say, wow, you can go anywhere, you can be anything, you can do anything.

00:09:27: So how on earth can you decide what to do?

00:09:29: So I think this abundance of choice, and through the research that I did for this book, from the psychology and from looking at people's career choices and relationships, unfortunately, the more options we have, the less confident we feel in the decision we make and also the less satisfied we feel with that choice.

00:09:46: So very simple example if I said to you today in this beautiful place if I said to you would you like to have a dessert yes or no?

00:09:53: Maybe you could tell me.

00:09:56: Let's practice.

00:09:56: Would you like a dessert yes or no?

00:09:58: I can really tell you literally from this lunch I decided to have just one meal.

00:10:05: then I had dessert and afterwards I said Oh no, but the

00:10:09: truffle pasta

00:10:10: looks so good.

00:10:11: And then I had after you, so it's a truffle pasta.

00:10:13: Okay,

00:10:15: well this is an exceptional place.

00:10:18: But I said to you, would you like dessert?

00:10:19: Yes or no?

00:10:19: And you said yes.

00:10:20: That's one option.

00:10:21: Now if I said to you, would you like chocolate ice cream or vanilla?

00:10:24: Maybe you could choose.

00:10:25: But if I took you to show you forty different flavors, mango and sorbet and ice cream and do you want sprinkles?

00:10:32: and no sprinkles?

00:10:32: Would you like a cone?

00:10:33: Would you like a cup?

00:10:34: there now you have thirty choices.

00:10:36: you're going to stand there for a lot longer and even when you pick your favorite okay i'm having the nut ice cream.

00:10:41: maybe i should have had strawberry?

00:10:43: yeah definitely

00:10:44: so i'm.

00:10:45: i'm now after being here for almost a week i'm decided not to make this choice anymore.

00:10:51: i'm taking the my my my two favorite bowls ice cream and that's it.

00:10:55: yes that's it.

00:10:57: I'm not trying anything else.

00:10:58: There's thirty different flavors and I decided not to be disappointed anymore.

00:11:03: I decided to take the two I really like.

00:11:07: It's coconut and salted caramel and full stock.

00:11:11: But what I also realized because we are now heading the end of our journey and so most of my clothes are worn.

00:11:21: So that means the decision what to wear today is also much more limited than it was in the beginning.

00:11:28: Yeah, and these might sound like, you know, mundane, small, silly things, okay, what ice cream to choose what to wear.

00:11:33: But really, these decisions that we're making every single day is still taking cognitive power, still taking energy to decide.

00:11:39: So some people, famously, like Steve Jobs, Barack Obama, they would have a set, capsule wardrobe of the same clothes.

00:11:46: So why would somebody like Barack Obama decide to wear the same suit with the same shirt, with the same tie?

00:11:52: He could have every suit.

00:11:53: But because he knew and understood that our energy and our capacity for decision-making is finite.

00:11:59: So by not having to choose that in the morning, he's not only saving time, but he's saving the energy, the brain space, to work on more important things.

00:12:07: But on the other hand, you are describing in your book that decision-making is a skill that can be trained.

00:12:14: So that means he doesn't train this decision-making anymore.

00:12:19: But my question is more... How can we, what is the first step to getting a better skill in decision making?

00:12:28: Yes, and it is a skill and we can practice.

00:12:30: and we can learn any skill through deliberate practice and repetition.

00:12:33: We can improve.

00:12:34: So I would say when it comes to decision making, how do we practice that skill?

00:12:38: The first thing is awareness, being aware that you're even making a choice.

00:12:43: So when people ask you, request is a good one.

00:12:45: So invitations, requests, maybe personal or maybe professional.

00:12:49: If your instant feeling is you always say yes, sometimes people say I'm a people, I mean people please just say yes and then figure it out later.

00:12:55: but actually I didn't really want to go to that.

00:12:57: It's interesting because under your presentation you had two days before or yesterday I think it was yesterday you also said people attend to say yes so so quickly and being in a resort like this I'm Tending to say very often no because I don't want to make the effort.

00:13:17: you know what I mean because I'm not used that everything is so Service-oriented.

00:13:22: so and I realized when you say that the people I used to say No, yes very quickly.

00:13:28: I realized that I say no very quickly and afterwards I regret and said Yeah, but it would have been nice.

00:13:34: So for example, all the returning guests having a sign on their bicycle with a name.

00:13:41: I love it.

00:13:42: And I asked our assistant, how do I get this sign?

00:13:48: And they said it's only for the repeating guest, but I can make an exception and can make you sign.

00:13:53: I said, no, never mind.

00:13:55: And now every day

00:13:56: I'm looking at the bicycle with a name and saying, Why have you said never mind?

00:14:00: You would have loved to have your bicycle with your

00:14:02: name.

00:14:03: Yeah, exactly.

00:14:04: So sometimes it's too quickly, as you said, too quickly.

00:14:06: So same way, either yes or no, either because you maybe want to be polite or sometimes people say they want to be agreeable.

00:14:12: So yeah, OK, I can come or yes, I can take on that project or yeah, I don't mind if you come and stay that.

00:14:18: tomorrow and then they go oh they're coming to stay tomorrow.

00:14:21: you know they really did want to say no or they just didn't think it through.

00:14:24: so the first thing is intentionality.

00:14:26: be aware that you are making a choice when you say yes when you say no when you agree or disagree you ask you are making a decision.

00:14:32: so awareness is first.

00:14:34: the second thing I would say about kind of this practice of how we make decisions is to I guess to ask yourself when you think about How you make decisions.

00:14:42: typically, do you think more analytically?

00:14:44: Are you somebody, think about your personality, the subjects you liked in school, do you like to kind of weigh up with numbers?

00:14:50: Are you somebody who likes statistics and percentages?

00:14:53: Because if you are and puzzles problem solving, you might be more of an analytical decision maker, so you're going to maybe compare and contrast.

00:15:01: Some people are much more in the body, in the creative, they might say.

00:15:05: they're actually much more making decisions based on a feeling, intuition, gut feeling.

00:15:10: Now, the question often is, well, which is better?

00:15:13: Actually, the research that I did shows that you need both.

00:15:16: And ultimately, you can never make a right or perfect decision.

00:15:20: Maybe we can talk about that later.

00:15:21: But to feel confident about the decisions you make, you need both.

00:15:25: You need some analysis and some, OK, I did the time to look at the options.

00:15:29: But you ultimately do have to feel the decision too.

00:15:32: And you can't squash or talk.

00:15:34: Some people talk their way out of that feeling.

00:15:35: The feeling tells them no.

00:15:37: but they are come on.

00:15:38: you should do it.

00:15:39: this is why and you talk yourself in and then when you dread it or you resent the the commitment your gut told you no but you didn't listen.

00:15:48: it is so funny when when you're explaining it i remember many years ago uh twenty five years ago i on my on the invitation for our marriage so for our wedding.

00:16:00: um we were thinking because We were in the mid-twenties and we had so many friends and we were pretty sure that people were offended sometimes when they're

00:16:12: not invited.

00:16:14: And then I introduced a model of circles.

00:16:17: So that means you have a circle where you say, okay, these are friends on the same inner line.

00:16:25: And then you have another line and another line.

00:16:27: And then we were... all the friends we put into the circles.

00:16:33: And when we said, okay, but when we invite one of these persons on the third circle, you have to fill up the whole circle, otherwise the other people in the circle would be offended.

00:16:45: And at the end we ended up not to follow completely to this model, because at the very end we felt, you know, but it feels so right if... Marco also will join the wedding.

00:16:58: Right, so

00:16:59: you have to make an exception.

00:17:00: Yeah, we make the exception at the end.

00:17:02: But exactly like I said, we started in an analytical way, but at the end we also said we have the decision from our heart or from our gut feeling or whatever that we said, no, but for us this is important that this person also joins.

00:17:15: It's exactly like I said, it is a combination.

00:17:19: You are... writing about in your book that we are facing high stakes, low stakes or no stakes decision.

00:17:26: Why does it matter?

00:17:27: Well, because a high stakes decision is exactly as it sounds.

00:17:30: It's very impactful.

00:17:32: So the knock on effect is going to be potentially quite big for better or for worse.

00:17:36: It could impact you now, but also in the future as well.

00:17:39: So an example of a high stakes decision is the decision to have a child.

00:17:43: It's not something you can maybe reverse, because you change your mind, you know?

00:17:47: Or a high-stakes decision, something like selling your company or relocating to another country, you know?

00:17:51: It's something that really you... Moving

00:17:52: to London was just interesting a year ago.

00:17:55: Exactly!

00:17:56: Exactly!

00:17:57: You have to think these things through.

00:17:59: But a low-stakes decision is something that you make every... very frequently is typically reversible.

00:18:04: so you know it's kind of easy to change your mind and reverse the decision.

00:18:08: so and then a no-stakes decision is essentially I mean it doesn't matter at all.

00:18:12: so sometimes the things that we are thinking about or might be silly, but like painting your downstairs bathroom.

00:18:18: Twelve different colors.

00:18:19: We've got to go and test them and patch and look.

00:18:21: And does this really represent the feeling that I want to have in the downstairs bathroom?

00:18:25: Really, it doesn't matter.

00:18:26: Like it doesn't matter.

00:18:27: It's not going to change your life course, but we still put energy there.

00:18:30: So I think it's important to look and say, actually, is this a low stakes decision?

00:18:34: This is a high stakes decision.

00:18:36: And the most important thing really that I want people to understand is that even though high stakes sounds like, oh, that must be so important.

00:18:43: The low stakes decisions that you make every day times it by seven times by weeks times by months times by years.

00:18:50: sometimes you make this a thousand times.

00:18:52: those low stakes decisions compound and we know the effects of compounding.

00:18:56: it really adds up and that can be so powerful for better or for worse

00:19:01: Food.

00:19:02: Food is a very good example.

00:19:04: I think you mentioned it about the cinnamon bun.

00:19:06: Cinnamon

00:19:06: bun.

00:19:07: One cinnamon bun is not going to change your health, right?

00:19:09: Maybe you're glucose for a few hours, but it's not going to change your health, health outcomes, your life.

00:19:13: But one cinnamon bun every single day is going to have a big impact on your health.

00:19:18: Definitely.

00:19:21: I'm pretty sure that some of my listeners are really disappointed to hear that I'm eating ice cream every day right now.

00:19:27: But at the moment I'm here, it is so delicious and I'm still convinced that life is for living.

00:19:34: And so, yeah, never mind.

00:19:36: Never mind, I have this ice cream.

00:19:38: But that's one week too.

00:19:39: So if you zoom out of your life, that's one week.

00:19:41: It's not every day.

00:19:43: And same with other habits.

00:19:44: So maybe that would be a negative habit.

00:19:46: But if you think about a positive thing, like sometimes people will tell me, oh Adrienne, I bought your book.

00:19:50: and it's been sitting on my shelf for a few months because I'm so busy and I really want to pick it up and read it.

00:19:55: If they said I'm gonna read ten pages every day, or one chapter even, if you said to somebody I'm gonna read one chapter a day, in one year how many books could you read, how many new ideas, how many things could you, and it doesn't have to be, I don't have time to read the whole book, but that small low stakes decision to pick it up ten pages over the course of your life.

00:20:15: how much knowledge you would learn.

00:20:17: So for example I'm currently writing on my first book and I'm also I would say the longest chapter is maybe five pages.

00:20:28: Okay.

00:20:29: So that you but I also have a lot of chapters which are probably just two pages.

00:20:33: Okay.

00:20:34: So and I think exactly for people like that just grabbing the book in the evening maybe have a just reading this two or three pages.

00:20:43: and because I personally see that especially when you're not having a when you have a nonfiction book it's so easy to consume and just to to like you said small portions every day.

00:20:56: and maybe you have one or two chapters.

00:20:58: but I personally like to consume knowledge like that.

00:21:03: Yeah, I like that style too.

00:21:04: And so yeah, you're using the metaphor of traffic lights, so red and green for decisions.

00:21:10: Can you explain to our listeners a little more of this framework?

00:21:13: Yes, yes.

00:21:14: So with the traffic light, because it's such a visual thing, it's the description that it basically helps kind of direct you.

00:21:20: So for example, when you see a red light, you have to stop, okay?

00:21:23: Of course, you have to pause, you have to wait, amber is kind of like you know.

00:21:28: maybe give it a second glance and green is just good to go.

00:21:31: So that's kind of again with the high stakes.

00:21:33: low stakes no stakes.

00:21:34: it's just kind of a visual thing for some people to see which is like high stakes.

00:21:37: it's red.

00:21:38: you need to take your time.

00:21:39: you can't say yes instantly because somebody asked you and they told you it's urgent.

00:21:43: you know do you ever get this?

00:21:44: maybe through work or an email?

00:21:45: something's urgent.

00:21:46: you have to tell me now.

00:21:47: can you do this?

00:21:48: if it's very important then it's not urgent.

00:21:51: If it's important, if you take your time and if it's urgent, then act quickly.

00:21:55: But that's just a visual for the high stakes, low stakes, no stakes.

00:21:58: Yeah, I love it.

00:21:59: I love it.

00:21:59: And what I even love more is this term, this acronym I learned from you, FOMO.

00:22:07: So the fear of better options.

00:22:10: Yes, yes.

00:22:12: Shall I explain?

00:22:13: Yes, please.

00:22:14: OK.

00:22:14: So many listeners, I'm sure, will have heard of FOMO.

00:22:17: the fear of missing out.

00:22:19: It's when we're looking thinking everybody's having fun and I'm missing out.

00:22:22: So phobo I feel like because it sounds the same.

00:22:25: it's kind of similar.

00:22:27: maybe you could be related but it's a little bit different because it's the fear of a better option.

00:22:32: And this is what holds people back from making a decision at all.

00:22:35: So procrastination.

00:22:36: So they think, okay, I need to decide about this.

00:22:39: I'm not so sure.

00:22:40: I can't make up my mind.

00:22:41: So I'm going to give it another week.

00:22:43: I'm going to think about it a bit more.

00:22:44: Maybe I'm going to talk to somebody else.

00:22:46: So I'm going to give it another month and on and on and on.

00:22:48: And six months later, they haven't made any choice at all.

00:22:50: They haven't chosen to make the change or not make the change.

00:22:53: They're just still kind of in this treading water with the decision.

00:22:57: So this often is fear of a better option.

00:22:59: because if I choose and I commit, talked about this cutting away and commitment if I choose this car let's say I've shopped around and I choose this one then someone's gonna drive past.

00:23:10: maybe I should have got that car.

00:23:12: yeah that's a better option.

00:23:13: I could have waited or even with the with a job with a career.

00:23:15: sometimes people they're looking and they're waiting and they're waiting because something better might just come along tomorrow but maybe it won't.

00:23:22: yeah.

00:23:23: so fear of a better option.

00:23:24: I think it holds many people back and when I tell people that they go I know what you mean because I do that.

00:23:31: Yeah, I know exactly what you mean and sometimes I'm also have good examples where I regret it really.

00:23:37: because for example, I don't know if you know There from from Charles Eames.

00:23:42: There's this typical plastic chairs, so okay You don't know that typical designer shares from from from a furniture designer.

00:23:49: His name is Charles Eames.

00:23:51: and This plastic chairs.

00:23:53: I'm pretty sure when you see they're quite iconic, but they are different varieties.

00:23:57: So there's one with arms.

00:23:59: There's a plastic armchair and there's a plastic regular shear.

00:24:02: Then you have it with some cushions on it, so integrated half-cushion, full-cushion, and no-cushion.

00:24:11: So my personal favorite is from an optical point of view, my personal favorite is no-cushion.

00:24:20: But from a comfortable level, I like the one with full-cushion.

00:24:26: Full cussion doesn't look so nice.

00:24:28: So at the end we needed eight chairs and we decided for all of them.

00:24:35: So that means two no cussion, two half cussions, two full cussions and two arm chairs.

00:24:42: And it looks quite nice because you see that it's one family, but it is different children of the family.

00:24:52: Nevertheless, we realized that at the end, we were three persons in the family and at the end we see that we all want to sit on the full car.

00:25:06: And one of us was always so, no, why should I sit there?

00:25:11: And when you have, especially in the weekend, three meals together, it's... It's a discussion there.

00:25:19: They're very useful,

00:25:20: exactly.

00:25:21: Anyhow.

00:25:21: So when intuition says one thing and logic says another, how do we know which we should trust?

00:25:29: Well, this is such a great question.

00:25:30: And I think the real difference is the difference between immediate and motion.

00:25:35: and intuition.

00:25:37: And it's very hard to discern between the two.

00:25:38: So intuition is pattern recognition actually.

00:25:41: It's the body and the mind connecting saying, I mean, you've heard this term red flag.

00:25:45: Sometimes people say, this is a red flag.

00:25:47: That means your body, your brain recognizes a pattern that has seen before.

00:25:51: So I've seen this before and I typically, when I see this, this is what happens.

00:25:55: So sometimes doctors are good example who maybe they've seen one thousand patients with these three symptoms.

00:26:01: Those three symptoms, when they see them very quickly, Because of intuition, there's also analysis of course there and lots and lots and lots of times they've seen this.

00:26:09: They're able to diagnose very quickly, okay, the baby with the hot cheeks and the spots and this, they have the chicken pox.

00:26:15: They're not, it's not magic, it's not, oh my gosh, you just guessed it, but no, they've seen one thousand times.

00:26:20: So intuition sometimes can be that, or even a tennis player, if you've hit the same ball one thousand times, certain times intuition tells you, I know where the ball is going before it goes there.

00:26:30: So that's intuition.

00:26:31: and it can play into lots of things.

00:26:32: of course when someone sometimes is speaking to us if we're looking at their face and their facial expression doesn't match the words that they say that can our intuition goes.

00:26:41: this is strange.

00:26:42: this person doesn't mean what they say.

00:26:43: yeah

00:26:44: a hundred percent.

00:26:45: I can give you a very good example.

00:26:46: I've spoken with so many Women in the last time in Berlin because in Berlin it seems to be dating seems to be a real real challenge for for women in their Thirties or maybe also in the twenties.

00:26:58: I don't know but but I Have some really good friends and they think yeah, but at the end now I decided maybe children are not so important for me.

00:27:08: getting having own children are not so important for me because they don't have the right partner.

00:27:12: Okay, but you this is for me the really the best example.

00:27:15: when you look at them and you see how they are saying the sentence.

00:27:20: It doesn't match what

00:27:22: the

00:27:23: emotion is.

00:27:26: So that's an example where your intuition is telling you, this person is saying this.

00:27:30: but the feeling is different and that's very very strong and it's really important to notice that and not discard it.

00:27:36: but emotion led decision.

00:27:37: now when people confuse that between oh that was my intuition.

00:27:40: no sometimes emotion is quick and impulsive and fast.

00:27:44: so for example someone sends you an email and you're really angry and you write an angry email and you send it back.

00:27:49: that can be an emotional decision.

00:27:51: you know that's not intuition sometimes that's emotion.

00:27:53: so if it feels quick if it feels responsive reactive that's often emotion.

00:27:58: and if it feels if it feels I guess deeper and more, it's a hard one to kind of really articulate, but I think the feeling is easy to recognize and hard to.

00:28:10: maybe I'll explain.

00:28:12: Yeah, yeah, and this really leads me to my next question because you're talking about value lead decisions and I think it's pretty hard to discover what their true values are and just the ones they think I should have it.

00:28:30: because it is, I don't know, everybody wants it, I also want it.

00:28:34: Yeah, of course, of course, everybody says, oh well everybody values their, you know, autonomy or freedom or health and these things.

00:28:41: I think value-led decisions are very important, especially, I think for you, I guess like we go through so many seasons in our life, you know, think about being a young person, adolescence, twenties, thirties, we go through these seasons and our values can change, what we value the most in that season can change.

00:28:56: And I think when we think about making a decision that is value-led, I encourage people to interrogate who, where did this value come from?

00:29:03: So is it something you sat around the table and your parents always told you this is an important thing, so you think this is an important thing?

00:29:10: Do you value that still now?

00:29:11: You know, I think there's probably things that maybe when I was younger, I can't think of really an example right now, but something that I would think this is so important to me and I value this so much.

00:29:19: But it will actually maybe sometimes do your... your friends.

00:29:24: I love my friends but sometimes you know making a value-led decision when you have a family, sometimes you have to prioritize maybe the family's needs over the friends or something like that or your career.

00:29:33: So I think when you have really start to understand okay where did my values come from?

00:29:38: I have a friend who, she's Japanese and she grew up in Japan but then she moved to Australia and the UK and she's travelled around the world.

00:29:45: But many of her core values are based on Japanese culture.

00:29:49: So one of her core values is about respect and she sees... being prompt or being late.

00:29:55: If you are late she sees it as very very disrespectful almost so you know she'll be very upset.

00:30:00: Still my opinion.

00:30:01: Yeah so this is her value.

00:30:02: and she said look I grew up with this value.

00:30:04: you can't be late for things you can't be late for people.

00:30:06: it's so much intentional rudeness to be late.

00:30:10: So now she's living in London and she's living in a Western culture and many of her friends are late and not intentionally and she used to be very upset and say you know this is just they're so rude and they just don't respect me.

00:30:20: And so she had to come see talk to me about this and she said you know what I am Japanese and I have Japanese culture but I'm no longer living in Japan.

00:30:29: So she had to kind of.

00:30:30: she still has this value and as a friend who knows that she values that.

00:30:33: I will make so much effort to be early, to be on time.

00:30:36: I'll never be late to meet this friend because I know how important this is as a value for her.

00:30:41: But she also tries to flex with her Western friends because she says, I also know that their value is slightly different to mine due to their culture.

00:30:48: And I think a good example of how when we understand what we value and why, then some things are non-negotiable like a deal breaker.

00:30:55: You know, if you value loyalty in a marriage and the other person doesn't.

00:30:59: That's going to be a deal breaker.

00:31:00: But if it's about something like punctuality and culture, then I think it's a good example to understand, oh, this person, they're not so uptight.

00:31:08: Come on, relax.

00:31:09: You go, no, this is something that's very important to them.

00:31:12: Yeah, it is.

00:31:13: It is.

00:31:14: And this is something you have the feeling that the reaction is not rational.

00:31:19: Yeah,

00:31:20: people say, come on, relax.

00:31:21: It's traffic.

00:31:21: I'm twenty minutes late.

00:31:23: Why is she so upset?

00:31:24: But for her, she says, no, this is...

00:31:26: It's an ogre.

00:31:27: I see.

00:31:28: Can you share a decision because there's a lot of personal experience in your book?

00:31:34: Can you share a decision of your own that was shaped by your own core values rather than a fear or expectation?

00:31:42: Yes, I have a very good example actually.

00:31:44: So one of my core values is to use my voice.

00:31:48: And what I mean by that is to speak honestly, to speak, I guess to speak up for things that maybe I... Believe in or that I value and I think not everybody can do that.

00:31:59: You know not everybody has a vote or a voice or they don't always have that opportunity.

00:32:03: So I feel like there's been certain times in my life for example when I was working in a startup company Where maybe I was quite new and I wasn't.

00:32:09: later on in the company I was more senior but when I first started I wasn't.

00:32:13: so I felt like certain things might happen.

00:32:15: Maybe you're in a meeting.

00:32:16: Maybe there's things decisions being made and certain people Felt like they had more of an ear and other people would listen.

00:32:22: other people didn't listen and I always felt like one of my values and it's almost my responsibility really to speak up.

00:32:28: so if something feels like it's unjust or it's unfair then some people would just say well that's just how it is and they walk away.

00:32:35: but I felt like one of my values is to and not.

00:32:38: it doesn't mean conflict but it means you know saying no I think this is something that is unfair and we should discuss it more.

00:32:44: So sometimes you have to think, OK, is this going to cost me?

00:32:47: Let's say they said, OK, this person is difficult.

00:32:49: We don't want you in the company anymore.

00:32:50: That could happen.

00:32:51: But I think that actually, for me, it turned out well.

00:32:54: And I think the founders really listened and they respected me for doing that.

00:32:58: Other people in the company started to trust and respect me for doing that.

00:33:01: And every time I've done it, even if I felt nervous, even if I felt afraid to speak up and say, Hold on, this is something we need to talk

00:33:09: about.

00:33:10: Every time I've remembered, this is something that I value.

00:33:12: And so far, it's worked out.

00:33:14: If someone listening right now and feels stuck, afraid of making a wrong decision, what would you tell them?

00:33:24: I would tell this person to remember that nobody, nobody you can think of, nobody that you respect, that you admire, that you look towards, has ever lived a perfect life with no mistakes, with no regrets, with everything just going perfectly and smoothly.

00:33:42: There's so much uncertainty in life and when we look at making a decision big or small, there are so many potential outcomes, potential variables, things that could happen or could change, micro or macro, things out of our control.

00:33:54: So I think it's important to have self-compassion, to make the decision that you choose at this time with the knowledge that you have.

00:34:01: trusting the gut, feeling what feels good, also doing some, you know, thoughtful analysis.

00:34:06: And then if it goes, if it works out great, maybe it wasn't all down to you.

00:34:12: And if it doesn't all work out great.

00:34:13: also maybe not all down to you.

00:34:15: Yeah I think self-compassion is in this context a very important thing because I think the worst thing you could do is making a decision having maybe afterwards a feeling that it was a wrong decision which always could be

00:34:30: but

00:34:31: never the left also to blame you.

00:34:33: then make it even worse I think is pretty good advice.

00:34:37: Yeah and unfortunately it's human nature that if we make a decision that goes well even if it's something like investing you choose something and it goes well.

00:34:43: we accredit that to us we accredit the success to ourselves.

00:34:46: oh I chose well but if it goes wrong We sometimes people don't choose, oh, it wasn't my fault, you know, something else happened.

00:34:52: It's kind of this way or other people are the other way around.

00:34:55: So they'll say, oh, it was, you know, it was.

00:34:56: they'll blame themselves and I think you're right.

00:34:58: Compassion, forgiveness and letting know, let it choose again, you know, let it go.

00:35:02: Tomorrow you have a chance to make another choice.

00:35:04: So thank you very much, Adrienne, for this conversation.

00:35:07: For everyone listening, Adrian's book Decisions That Matters is out now.

00:35:11: It's a practical, inspiring guide for anyone who wants to make choices with a line to your true values.

00:35:19: And Einstein, thank you very much.

00:35:20: Thank you for having me.

00:35:25: Do you have a favorite supplement in your life you won't miss?

00:35:29: I do.

00:35:30: Magnesium.

00:35:31: magnesium is a supplement that I try to take quite often because I'm very active.

00:35:36: so I feel and I've read lots about how aids recovery and I'm somebody who yeah I'm very active.

00:35:40: often I'm either training for an endurance race like a half marathon or I'm doing pilates and strength training and things like that and also to aid sleep so that's one that I'm very consistent with.

00:35:52: If you enjoyed this episode, I'd be thrilled if you could leave a rating on Apple Podcast or Spotify.

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